Traveller-digest      Thursday, June 26 1997      Volume 1997 : Number 1484



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Task systems.
Re: The Real Vote
TML Archive Location
Imperial Bulk Carrier
Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #1480
Skill Level-15 ? I don't think so !!
Re: Latest Vote Count, 25th of June
Re: TL of the Rule of Man (Don't call it Ramshackle!)
Re: The MT task system was *FAR* from perfect...
Re: The KBv2.0 Challenge
Re: In defence of MegaTraveller

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 13:51:06 GMT
From: "J." <Jonathan@hccm.co.uk>
Subject: Task systems.

It seems obvious to me that we'll never all agree on a single task system,
everyone will carry on using their own systems to run a game in the way that,
they want. 
This is one of the great things about traveller, you can change the rules
of the
game so it feels right for you.

Rob_Prior@nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior) wrote:
>3) Keep the present task system, renaming it the "space opera" style. 
>(Because a character can be good at everything with high attributes.)  Make a
>new system that can use the same task descriptions (in terms of
>skill/attribute/level) but has a different balance, and call that the "hard
>SF" style.  BOTH systems would be official, and which one is used would be up
>to the gamers.  Then gaming groups can pick a task system to match their
>style, and it will still be Traveller.

I thought this was a great idea. Then a thought occurred to me (don't worry
it doesn't happen very often :)

Why restrict it to two task systems?

Look at all the task systems that have been suggested and look for the
similarities. Each each task system the difficulties are roughly the same.
Easy, Average, Difficult, etc.....
Stats remain a constant throughout all the traveller editions (in TNE the
stats
ranged from 0 to 20, but there were still the same 6 stats).
Skills remain a constant too, roughly the same skills exist in each edition of
traveller (Vacc suit skill is always vacc suit skill).

So the constants are Skill names, stat names and difficulty levels, 
my suggestion is whenever a task is printed in an adventure or supplement
or in JTAS print it only using these things, for example:

        To put on a Vacc suit
        Average, DEX, Vacc suit
        increase difficulty level if in a confined space
        decrease difficulty level if another character is assisting

It's easy to understand and it's not specific to any task system. It's usable
by everyone regardless of rules system without modification (I haven't had
chance to check the details).

T4.1 can be printed with a single task system inside. Printing more than one 
task system may be confusing to new players (particularly to people who have 
never played an RPG).
Also the task system in the rulebook could be revised from edition to edition 
without making old supplements out of date (Like pocket empires would be if 
the task system changed now).

Comments?

J.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 08:03:00 -0600
From: Erwin Fritz <efritz@glja.com>
Subject: Re: The Real Vote

Kenneth Bearden wrote:
> 
> Of the first 73 votes for task change, there were only 8 that voted
> for MT.  Those people were--
> 
> 8 votes for MT
> ===============
[names snipped]
> 
> Of those same 73 votes, there were a whopping 28 votes for KBv2.0.
> Those people were--
> 
> 28 Votes for KBv2.0
> =================
[more names snipped]

You can move my name to the MT list. My reasons were stated in a 
previous post.

Erwin

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 10:39:46 -0400 (EDT)
From: Ethan Henry <ehenry@mag1.magmacom.com>
Subject: TML Archive Location

> From: David Smart <dsmart@flash.net>
> 
> After being off the TML for the last 3 months or so, it's
> nice to see the Flame (or is that "flames") still going.

Burn, baby, bu*muffled yelp as Ethan is dragged away*

> Um...anyone know where the digest archives are kept? I'd
> like to get up to speed on the Task topic, particularly
> T4.1, and I forgot the archive location.  (hey, it's
> been awhile...)
 
ftp://ftp.mpgn.com/Gaming/Traveller/MailingListArchive/Traveller/

Which is often updated before the digests are mailed out even.

- -- 
ehenry@magma.ca                                  http://www.magma.ca/~ehenry

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Jun 97 10:46:22 -0400
From: Lewis Roberts <lewis@chara.gsu.edu>
Subject: Imperial Bulk Carrier

 Hi,
I recently downloaded Antti Lahtinen Excel spreadsheet
(http://www.ee.tut.fi/~lahtinen/Traveller/)
 for making up TNE and T4 starships, and I converted the Common
Imperial Bulk Transport from Megatraveller to TNE and T4 stats.  The
ship write up is by me, the original ship was just a bunch of numbers
with out any write up.  
The TNE stats will go up on the BARD pages, but the T4 stats need a
home, feel free to give them one.

Lewis
- ----------------------------------

Common Imperial Bulk Transport.  
Originally designed for Mega Traveller and presented in the Rebellion Sourcebook.

This ship is one of the most common in the Imperium.  It forms the
backbone of most of the megacorp merchent fleets.  It is idealy suited
to hauling vast amounts of material from point a to point b, and that's
about all that it can do.  This ship can haul more material in one
trip, then most tramp freighters will haul in ten years.  

The ship is a cylinder, with two engine pods mounted on small
outriggers, at the front of the ship.  The bridge, living quarters and
jump drives are all mounted on the front of the cylinder, almost all of
the cylinder is taken up by cargo and fuel.  The ship is fairly
spartan, the crew quarters are nice, but nothing spectacular.  The
worst that could be said about them is that they are bland.  In fact
that goes for the ship in general, it doesn't even have a interesting
nick name.  But the ship is doing a bland job, moving large amounts of
material between the worlds of the Imperium.  

Here is a version of the ship using T4 rules, and one using TNE rules. 
The T4 version has more jump fuel and less cargo, but fewer crew
members. I tried to follow the original MT version as closely as
possible, the only significant thing I changed is that the orignal had
a fuel purification plant and fuel scoops.  But the ship is
unstreamlined, and can't use its scoops.  I also figure the megacorps
will have enough ships that they will have established their own fuel
purification plants at the starport, so they can purify fuel for many
ships.  Why have each ship carry its own purification plant, when for a
whole week it is just sitting there useless.


- - - ---------------------------------------------------------
						
Tons: 20000 (Cylinder USL)    Volume: 280000 m3       Cost: 4056.436 MCr
Crew: 103		      High/Mid Pass: 20       Low Pass: 0
Cargo: 12021.1 tons	      Controls: Std(Bridge)   TL: 15

10 Size			   3 Jump Drive (1333.3 tons/Pc Fuel)			
6 Fire Control		   1 Maneuver (HEPlaR, 4200 MW), No ASD			
12xLaser Trts10:2,2,2,2	   0.6 Power Plant (5838 MW)			
			   5916.7 Fuel 			
			   0 Meson Screen (0 MW)			
			   30 Sandcasters (0 cans)			
1xspacious hangar (95-ton) 0 Nuclear Damper			
1xminimal hangar (2-ton)   2A 4P 0J Sensors			
			   20 Armor, 27 Structure			

Crew: 2 Maneuver, 3 Electronics, 4 Engineer, 62 Gunnery, 11
Maintenance, 2 Flight, 4 Steward, 1 Medic, 14 Command			
Accom: 20 large staterooms, 75 small staterooms, 			
Average density: 0.3 ton/m3, the ship will float on water.			

- - - ---------------------------------------------------
 General Data				
Displacement: 20000 tons			Hull Armor: 40
Length: 162.34 meters				Volume: 280000 m3
Price: MCr 4056.4				Target Size: L
Configuration: Unstreamlined Cylinder		Tech Level: 15
Mass (Loaded/Empty): 88382.7 / 40510.4				

Engineering Data				
Power Plant: 5838 MW Fusion Power Plant, 1 year duration (583.8 m3
fuel)				
Jump Performance: 3 (56000 m3 fuel)				
Maneuver Drive: 1G Heplar, No Contra Grav		
G-Turns: 50 (J2: 85.6; J1: 121.1; 156.7 using all jump fuel), 525 m3
fuel each				
Maint: 3434				

Electronics				
Computer: 3xTL-15 Standard computer (0.55 MW)				
Commo: 2xLaser (10 hex; 0.15 MW), 3xMaser (10 hex; 0.3 MW), Radio (Unlimited; 20 MW)
Avionics: Imaging EMS, IGS positioning, 190 km/h NOE
Sensors: AEMS (2 hex; 7 MW), PEMS (4 hex; 0.1 MW), 
ECM/ECCM: None
Controls: Bridge with 19 bridge workstations, 4 normal workstations

Armament
Offensive:12x TL-15 150 MJ Laser Turrets 10:1/10-31, 20:1/10-31,
          40:1/10-31, 80:1/10-31 (42 MW; No crew)
          15xMissile Turret (0.15 MW; 1 crew)
Defensive: 30xSand Turret (1 MW; 1 crew)50 cans each, 2d10x5 beam reduction
Master Fire Directors: 12xTL-15 (6 Diff Mods; 10 hex; 1.56 MW; 1 crew),
5xTL-15 (6 Diff Mods; 10 hex; Msl 10 hex; 1.71 MW; 1 crew)

Accommodations
Life Support: Extended (39.3666 MW), Gravitic Compensators (984.165 MW)
Crew: 103 (2xManeuver, 3xElectronics, 4xEngineer, 62xGunnery,
11xMaintenance, 2xFlight, 4xSteward, 1xMedic, 14xCommand)
Crew Accommodations: 75xSmall Stateroom (0.5 kW)
Passengers: 20xHigh, 
Passenger Accommodations: 20xLarge Stateroom (1 kW)		
								
Other Facilities: None						
				
Cargo: 168295.4 m3 (12021.1 tons), 480 Large Hatches, 8 missiles in
magazine							
			
Small Craft and Launch Facilities: 1x95-ton spacious hangar, 1x2-ton
minimal hangar							
			
Air Locks: 200							
			

Notes								
		
Total Fuel Tankage: 82833.8 m3 (5916.7 tons) 			
							
								
		
								
		


Damage tables							
			
Surface Hits			Internal Explosion		
Systems		Systems		Systems	
Air Locks	0.4		Elec	0.1		AEMS-1h	
LS-44H		LB	
Antenna	0.2		Hold	12.4		AG-40H	
LSR-20x1H		LT	
Cargo hatch	8.4		Fuel	5.9		AL-200x1h
	MD-4H		MB	
EMM Rad	0		Qtrs	0.5		ELS-22H	
MFD-17x2h		MG	
Launch ports	0.2		Eng	0.9		EMM-None
	MS-None		MT	
Screens	0		Weap	0.2		EMM Rad-0h	
ND-None		NDB	
Total	9.2		Total	20		FPP-None	
PEMS-1h		NDT	
						FT-829H		PEMS
Ant-1h		PA	
Other Surface Locations					
HULL-14H		PP-20H		TS	
Man drive	0.4					JD-224H	
SSR-75x2h			
Jump drive	3.3					LBth-None
				
Weapons	0.5							
		
Total	4.2							
		

  

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 10:49:04 -0400 (EDT)
From: Ethan Henry <ehenry@mag1.magmacom.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #1480

> From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
> Subject: Skill Descriptions
> 
> Well, after rummaging around here's one description I posted way back in
> March.
> 
> Level 0 - You saw somebody do it once, and if you're lucky you won't
>           hurt yourself trying.
<deletia>
> 
> Level 7 - Yoda, Steven Hawking or Michael Jordan.
> 
> Level 8 - "...in the beginning..."

Well, Eris, I think Doug Berry has a _much_ better description of
skill levels at his web page, so without permission...
from http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/housrule.html, which is pretty darn funny:

An explanation of how skill levels work, from The Space Bozos

In CT, Players wanted to know what capabilities came along with
each skill level. I used Vacc Suit skill as an example.

Skill Level 0 
  Character can figure out which are the arms and which are the legs.
  Manages to hook up the plumbing with a minimal chance of messy errors.
  No meaningful repairs or maintenance possible. Took a Vacc Suit 
  familiarization seminar (1 day) at the local Hilton. 
Skill Level 1 
  Plumbing fixtures are recognized as the really important aspect of
  comfort in a Vacc Suit that they are. Can slap a patch on a hole.
  Arms vs. Legs are no problem at all. Experienced at cleaning out
  vacc suits in which the plumbing was hooked up by a level 0 user.
  Took the Vacc Suit course at the local Technical school (got an easy credit). 
Skill Level 2 
  Can hook up plumbing so well you almost don't notice it.
  Stitching and patching is Routine. Assigns cleaning up mistakes to
  level 1 newbies. Can make a vacc suit with the proper materials 
  and supervision. Minored in Vacc Suit in College. 
Skill Level 3 
  Plumbing can be used as a sexual aid. Knows all the tricks of messy
  clean ups (just reverse the vacuum system so...oops, sorry Jack!).
  Can make a Vacc suit with some non-standard materials. Has a B.S.
  in Vacc Suit technology. 
Skill Level 4 
  Plumbing can be an ecstatic experience. Can make a vacc suit with
  Improvised materials like Rubber Gloves, Glass fishbowls, Condoms, Super
  Polydent, Final Net hairspray, a seltzer bottle, reflective Duct
  Tape, etc. Has gone to Vacc Suit Graduate School and been in the Vacc suit
  industry. 
Skill Level 5 
  A true Demi-God of Vacc Suit technique. Occasionally hooks people
  up to vacc suits for a fee (Vacc Gigolo). Teaches at Vacc Suit University.
  Can make an improvised Vacc Suit with a case of condoms (ribbed,
  lubricated), a jar of KY Jelly and several rolls of Duct Tape. Can
  make you a tailored vacc suit that looks like a Gold Lame dress. 
Skill Level 6 
  Vacc Suits are this person's Life. There are still people hooked up
  to the plumbing by this person in a comatose orgasmic state. Runs Vacc Suit
  University. Always wears a vacc suit (although you'd never know it).
  Can improvise a Vacc Suit with One condom, One Roll of Duct Tape, and a
  jar of KY Jelly. Makes Sector-wide Fashion news with their daring
  new Vacc Suit designs. 

Again, I take no credit except for having the sense to post it.

Ethan
- -- 
ehenry@magma.ca                                  http://www.magma.ca/~ehenry

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 11:03:09 -0400
From: Andy Brick <exeus@compuserve.com>
Subject: Skill Level-15 ? I don't think so !!

Hi All,

Kenneth Bearden wrote -

> If you have skills and stats on a 1-15 scale, you're looking at =

> target numbers like KBv2.0 has.  =


WHOAH !!! Skills on a 1-15 scale ? I don't think so.

Marc stated that "one skill point a year" was the target for T4. If you h=
ave an
average guy do four terms of previous experience, he'll get about 16 skil=
l points in that
time, ignoring special events.

Specialisation is for insects. Most people will allocate those 16 skill p=
oints across at
least 5 or 6 key skills, giving an average level of 3 ish in each one. In=
 fact, a lot of
people would go further than that, and have upto 10 skills. That's Skill-=
1 or Skill-2.

Unless you are using a highly strange character generation system, Kennet=
h, or have characters
with godlike abilities in Vac Suit who can't tie their own shoelaces, I d=
o not see a single
skill level much above 4 or 5 in character generation. In fact, although =
I cap my players at
level 5 in generation, few ever generate a character with a skill initial=
ly above 3
anyway. Those that do rarely have a varied enough skill base to do anythi=
ng useful in the game
( "Well, I can pilot the Scout ship, but that's it. I'll just stay here w=
hy you guys go off
and investigate that strange alien pyramid..." ).

> You'll have to use 2-7 dice to get the percentages where they need to b=
e

As I proved in my earlier posting, this just isn't so. Multiple dice caus=
e bigger distortions
in relative skill levels - i.e Edu 2, Medic-2 is 56x as likely to succeed=
 on 5D as Edu 2, Medic-1,
but only 14x as likely on 4D. As things get harder, the gap widens.

Also, KBv2.0 makes it too easy. Gun Combat-6, Dex 7 makes an Impossible t=
ask under MT on a 12+.
In KBv2.0, you need 25- on 7D i.e. about 18x the chance under MT and actu=
ally pretty much the
same as an Average Task. This has to be WRONG - Impossible should be Impo=
ssible and only just
achievable by the most skilled people. Making it average for these guys m=
eans the game is reduced
to a farce ( "Hit the Vargr Ambassador at 3km at night without sights ? S=
ure, it'll be like =

shooting a tin can off my fence." ).

MT is still the more dramatic and consistent system, and it actually make=
s the game a challenge =

too. KBv2.0 removes the element of risk and distorts the relative value o=
f skill levels as =

difficulty increases. Also, MT is tried and tested, which KBv2.0 doesn't =
seem to have been =

( otherwise these flaws would have been found and ironed out by now, eh K=
enneth ? )

Andy Brick
exeus@compuserve.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 17:08:34 MET
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <GREI5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: Latest Vote Count, 25th of June

Zhodani agents report that Volker A. Greimann wrote:

Voting for T4.1 with revisions or variants thereof:
Marc Miller
A.S.Lilly
Phil Kitching
Tim Reynolds
Simon Turner
Andrew Vallance
Mike Lee
Leroy WL Guatney
Suzette Dollar
Stuart Dollar
Allen Shock
Bill Prankard
J.P.
Joe Walsh
- -14
( some of these state that it can't stand as it is though)


Voting for KBv2.0 (or other KB variants or similar systems) were: 
- -14
Kenneth Bearden
 Peter Miller 
Dedly 
Richard Hough
 Kelly St.Clair 
Jeff Norton 
VolantZep 
James W. Lindsay 
SD Mooney (willing to Accept KBvXX, prefers MT) 
dmckinne            (ditto!)
Michael Galligan 
Glenn Grant 
FC Pickett
Chris Griffen

Voting for a system along the lines of MT 
(or variants thereof):
(or just preferring it!)
- -33
Volker A. Greimann
Carlos Alos Ferrer
Andrew Akins
Nick Munn
2drapers
Dave Scott
RFXn
Sam Thomas
JumpSix
PA Harris ("Harry")
Erwin Fritz
Erik Riley
Steve Brengard
DJ Golden
Douglas E. Berry
Gypsy Comet
Rob Prior
Franklin Cain
Vanya
John Snead
David P Summers
Ryan Dooley
SD Mooney
Bob Sanders
Ola Agren
dmckinne
Andy Brick
Stephanie Hostman
Roy Martin
Nik Whitehead
Andrew Boulton
Steve Charlton
Victor Holzrichter

TNE-like D20 system
- -3
Harold Hale
R. Boleyn
DJ.Golden

Other votes generally in favor of change (no specific system)
- -12
Jeffry Miller
John Wood
jwbrewer
Mark Ayers
Bruce Alan Macintosh
Neil McGurk
Michael Peters
Paul Owensby
Marc Bradley
Scott Ellsworth
William F. Hostman
Eris Redoch
Glenn Grant
Victor Raymond

72 votes tallied!
MT taking an impressive lead by now! Anybody cited wrong or left out
mail me and i'll change the list!


Ad Astra,
V.A.G.       
- ------  Volker A. Greimann, also known as: Grei5001@uni-trier.de  ----
- -- Am Weidengraben 86,C6 - 54296 Trier - Germany - T+F: +49651148846 -
- ------- check out: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061 --------
- ---- Student of Law, Gamer, Illuminatus Primus, Slayer of Windows95 --

- -----  "Don't hold me up: I am just barely ahead of insanity!!!" -----


Ad Astra,
V.A.G.       
- ------  Volker A. Greimann, also known as: Grei5001@uni-trier.de  ----
- -- Am Weidengraben 86,C6 - 54296 Trier - Germany - T+F: +49651148846 -
- ------- check out: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061 --------
- ---- Student of Law, Gamer, Illuminatus Primus, Slayer of Windows95 --

- -----  "Don't hold me up: I am just barely ahead of insanity!!!" -----

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 11:02:14 -0400 (EDT)
From: Ethan Henry <ehenry@mag1.magmacom.com>
Subject: Re: TL of the Rule of Man (Don't call it Ramshackle!)

> From: hdhale@siscom.net (Harold Hale)
> Subject: Re: TL of ramshackle empire
> 
>    Why?  For one, with the war won, there simply isn't the pressure to
> advance that there used to be.  For another, the Terran
> Confederation/Second Imperium proceeded to absorb billions of sentient
> beings, the vast majority of which were very conservative about
> technological development.  This undoubtedly had a significant impact,
> as did the new rulers desire to broaden the narrow base of technological
> development that had been created during the war years.  While there
> were new discoveries, new inventions, and basic R&D going on, the
> efforts of Rule of Man were toward horizontal rather than vertical
> technological development.  

Not to mention that the Terrans were probably busy doing things that,
in hindsight, were totally foolish, like trying to upgrade massive
amounts of Vilani technological infrastructure to bring it in line
with Terran "standards". For example, the massive deployment of
"Windows 2298" across the former Empire of the Stars may have single
handedly destroyed several worlds that depended heavily on computer-
controlled climate systems...

>    While it is possible that a few worlds achieved TL 13 at some point,
> these worlds would have been located in the Solomani Rim or in an
> adjacent sector, away from the central region of the Second Imperium,
> and their impact of the overall economy of the Rule of Man would have
> been rather insignificant.  It is also possible that they would have
> been the object of fighting between various factions at arose in the
> latter stages of the empire, and their technological supremacy been
> relatively short-lived.  

IIRC, the "capitol" of the RoM moved steadily away from Terra,
going coreward as the war front pushed farther and farther away
from Terra. At one point, the capitol of the RoM was about halfway
between Terra and Sylea, again, IIRC. No doubt the corridor between
Terra and the current capitol would contain a lot of worlds that had
signifigant high TL production capacity. In the end, at least some
of these worlds would be closer to Sylea than Terra.

>    Still, the Rule of Man would have likely achieved TL 13 at some point
> (perhaps c. -1600) had the empire's economy held together, and that
> would have opened the door to further experimental technologies even
> approaching TL 14 (as in the infamous vacc suits).  But the evidence is
> clear that the Rule of Man was well on the way to disintegration by
> - -1776, and the likelihood that items could be mass produced even in
> small quantities at TL 14 is simply outside the realm of possibility for
> the Rule of Man.
> 
>    Comments?

Everything you say makes sense, Harold. It certainly is possible that
the RoM could have achieved TL 14 capabilities in a few fields for
a number of years, but this was all lost as the Empire crumbled. On
a historical chart, a 20 to 50 year period of partial TL-14 on a few
worlds would probably barely register, but it could result in a lot of
TL-14 vacc suits, rifles, etc being present in caches, depots, etc.


I don't, personally, have a big problem with throwing relic TL-14
equipment into adventures, sparingly. It's just that authors should be
careful that they don't accidentally re-write history or things like that.

Ethan
- -- 
ehenry@magma.ca                                  http://www.magma.ca/~ehenry

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 16:10:25 -0700
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: The MT task system was *FAR* from perfect...

At 09:48 AM 6/25/97 -0700, Chris Griffen wrote:

>If you are highly skilled enough at certain tasks, say Gun Combat, you can
>achieve impossible tasks that simply should not be possible. For instance,
>you have good marksmanship skill, say Combat Rifleman-5. If you roll high
>enough on your task roll, using a gauss rifle or whatever, you can
>penetrate battledress and wound or even kill its wearer with one shot or
>burst.

Chris, as a former sniper, I was able to put 3 rounds through a half-inch
target at 150m.  Doesn't it stand to reason that someone with a phenominal
level of skill could find the weak point (visor, joints, etc..) and put one
round where it counts?

Plus, the game is supposed to be *heroic*.. I don't want to have to have to
tell a player that it's impossible to stop the charging Consular Guard.. I
want him to know that he has a 1-in-a-hundred chance of making the shot.. I
want to see sweat on those dice..  :)

- --
+------------------------------------------------+
|   Douglas E. Berry         dberry@hooked.net   |
| Gearhead & Planetologist, Traveller since 1977 |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/         |
|************************************************|
|    "Traveller assumes a remote centralized     |
|   government (referred to in this volume as    |
|    the Imperium)...                            |
|       -Introduction, Book 4: Mercenary (1978)  |
+------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 08:57:44 -0600
From: Glenn Hoppe <starcity@sk.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: The KBv2.0 Challenge

Chris Lloyd wrote:
> 
> Kenneth Bearden writes:
> > If you think you have a better system, then challenge me on it.  Pick
> > a clear game related example and compare your system to KBv2.0.
> > Show me how it is better than KBv2.0.
> 
> Just a quick response as to where I think KBv2.0 is broken (I think
> T4.1 handles this better, but still not right).
> 
> Consider a top athlete, about to undergo his first aging crisis:
> His dex drops by one, but in the same year he gains a skill point in
> athletics.
> Using KBv2.0 he's now performing better than ever before.  Those young
> whipper snappers have nothing on him.  So long as he keeps going to
> the race meetings and practicing he'll be beating them until the day
> he dies...

I know this has been mentioned before, but I hope that the above example
makes it obvious:

The relationship between Characteristics and Skill *depends upon the
nature of the task*.

In gymnastic-related tasks, in general, young whipper-snappers with high
dex and lots of energy outperform the most seasoned professional.

In tasks such as auto-racing, (wheeled vehicle), many older seasoned
professionals can still hold their own.

Other tasks in the specialized sciences, physics for example, the
characteristic (Education) doesn't really count for much IMHO, you need
the specialized knowledge in the skill, general education won't help you
solve the Grand Unified Theory.


I get very tired of people insisting that their formula, or the formula
of their favourite system, weights Characteristics & Skills *correctly*.
There is no "right" way. It's all a matter of taste.

Personally, I'm using Skill as an absolute measure to avoid the whole
problem. If I feel characteristics should come into play, It can be
handled as a separate task against the particular characteristic.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 17:44:23 MET
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <GREI5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: In defence of MegaTraveller

Zhodani agents report that Kenneth Bearden wrote:

- -> You said that the guy with a level 3 skill should have a better
- -> chance of rolling SS than he does for a regular success.  I don't
- -> agree with that, but just to humor you, here's the same example
- -> with sombody with a level 1 skill.
- -> 
- -> And look at that--his chance of rolling SS is still better than his
- -> chance of rolling regular success by almost a 2 to 1 margin.
Hohoho!
Waitaminnit, right there, we're talking about average tasks here, so 
about something that's not outside ones experience and not very 
difficult to do! In these tasks it is not very difficult to achieve 
in the best way possible. Such is life, and such is MT.  The 
MT-system is a simulation of life itself (now didn't we always want 
that ????)

- -> KBv2.0 IS the better choice.
Might be for you. 
BTW: Notice that KBVxx is more complicated than MT?
Apart from Divisions/Multiplication which cuts each other out there 
are many more additions necessary!!! ;-)
- -> 

Ad Astra,
V.A.G.       
- ------  Volker A. Greimann, also known as: Grei5001@uni-trier.de  ----
- -- Am Weidengraben 86,C6 - 54296 Trier - Germany - T+F: +49651148846 -
- ------- check out: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061 --------
- ---- Student of Law, Gamer, Illuminatus Primus, Slayer of Windows95 --

- -----  "Don't hold me up: I am just barely ahead of insanity!!!" -----

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1484
***********************************
